Friday, November 6, 2009

A Very Long, Crazy, Convoluted, Baffling Virtual Discussion

Obviously, I have not posted in a while. So, I am making up for it with this mammoth book length post. I've just been having this email discussion with a person I used to work with at one point. It is insane. He is insane. I can't believe we are having this conversation. I can't believe what it is I am reading. So, I have to share it with someone! "Why not make it into a blog," I said? "Why not," I said right back!

Here is the background. We were living in ....Turkey..... This guy comes to work at the same school as us. It doesn’t take long for him to make a name for himself, openly saying the rudest things at the most inappropriate times to people. I mean, he was a dick. He made a lot of people very angry. He came to live in a Muslim country, and while doing so was openly hostile to Muslims. There was a lot of crap related to him, all kinds of stories. Alcohol didn’t help matters much it is fair to say. Then, one day, he left. He picked up, moved out, left his job behind, left his key in the door and was gone…the bank looking for him, his colleagues screwed and people shaking there heads.

We had previously been “friends” on Facebook where we would get in arguments. Like I said, he was openly hostile to Muslims and about Islam. One day, while he was writing about how he thinks Muslims are trying to take over the world and are infiltrating countries, hellbent on creating an Islamic planet, I brought up the fact that there are extremists who say the EXACT same thing about Jews. Well, this pissed him off, he defriended me and wrote me an email that was less than nice, got very defensive, etc. Okay, well, I was just pointing out a fact, and trying to show just how radical he sounded. It didn’t go over big. He was angry, telling me I didn’t know anything because I didn’t know what it was like to be a minority (Jewish and gay) and that I had been brainwashed…or…whatever…some such stuff as that.

Fast forward to now. My family and I just moved to ....Qatar..... For some reason, out of the blue, he writes me:


SS: So now, I guess, you are going to pretend that the geographic expression that is ....Qatar.... is a great place to live. Such a nice locale to raise a family, however. Antisemitism, misogyny, hatred of the West and mediocrity are in the water there so you must feel right at home.


ME: ....Qatar.... is what it is. All places are what they are. It has it's pluses, it's minuses, it's faults and it's advantages. There are so great people. There are some not so great people. It's another place in the world to see and experience. What can I tell ya? Where have you fled to these days?


SS: I have fled as far away from muslims as I possibly could. I am living in southern ....Minnesota..... 100 percent progressive tolerant christians.

I work in a lab testing soil for all sorts of things I don't understand.

Get back to the prairies of ..North America.. and have a lot more babies.

I have a blog now in which I say a lot of apologetic things about Islam.


ME: Ah, yes.....Southern Minnesota... I was just in your area not too long ago. Well, ....Minneapolis...., so, closer to your area. I like that part of the world.

Well, things are going well in the of ..Muslims.... here. We all sit around and talk about Jews all day long. It's all that anyone really does here. Nothing else...just hang around, talk about Jews. It's grand.

I will check out your should be interesting.

A lab testing soil?? How the heck does one go from teaching English to testing soil? Regardless, it sounds like you have taken a different turn in your life now that I hope is working out well for you.

(At this point, I check out his blog...)

Why you have dedicated your life to such hatred is beyond me. Spreading hate? How is that solving anything? Stop playing the victim. Stop with your hatred and your bigotry. Give it a rest.


SS: You are misreading me completely.

Firstly, I am not a victim of anything, despite being a member of a few historically oppressed minority groups. I am, rather, motivated by not wanting to be a victim.

I am the beneficiary of the West and chose to embrace it and appreciate it. That accident of birth allowed me to be who I am. The only thing I can be accused of is not appreciating it sooner in my life and wasting too much time and intellectual energy on delusional apologetics for the left and tyranny like you currently do.

We are heirs of the greatest culture and civilization the world has ever seen. It has produced everything that is good and right and free. That freedom was bought at a heavy price and a long, harsh historical process that you might know very little about. I don't wish to spit on the memory of the millions who died to allow me to be who I am. What are you choosing?

Islam is the greatest threat to that tradition of individual freedom since fascism and communism and I decided not to burry my head in the Arabian sand when confronted with this very real and present danger.

Islam is on the march and has raised its ugly, genocidal, totalitarian head again after centuries of dormancy. It wishes to strip us of our liberal freedoms, repress women, throw gays off tall mountains (according to Sharia, mind you), and erase all traces of other religions if not kill them outright as their "prophet" did in days of old. This is not based on anything I say but what muslims say every day in every mosque in every corner of the world, whether they are black, Arabs, Turks, Chinese, red, or purple.

Now you can look at all that and decide who is spreading "hatred and bigotry," me or them. And who embraces individual freedom, diversity, and who defends the rights for women and sexual and religious minorities, me or them.

We at Savage Infidel will dedicate our lives to that and not be frightened or silenced by accusations of hatred and bigotry because they are simply untrue.


ME: Wonderful. It looks like you have added elements of ultra nationalism to your list of extreme right wing views.

I just thought I would share some links with you...

.. ..

All lovely reading about Jewish extremism, involving riots, murder, fraud, homophobia, and facism. Enjoy!



Just TWO of many groups that contradict some of your statements.

The point is, as you point fingers seemingly ONLY at muslims (and seemingly ALL muslims) you ignore what is happening within your own religion, and other religions. You ignore the history of your own people by using the exact same rhetoric that was used to help the holocaust happen (among other genocides). You are filled with extreme hate, and have taken an extreme stance, seemingly devoting your life to fighting against something without looking at all sides. You just see what you want to see. Most unfortunate. What is worse is that YOU have the power to do something positive. You have been a teacher, and apparently a good one. How can attitudes be changed in the world? Through education. For reasons unknown, you have shunned this route and decided to dedicate yourself to being an extremist. Sad. What a waste.


SS: I do not really care about some sectarian Orthodox conflict in ..Brooklyn... But I am glad that you are spending your time on such nonsense. At least your are consistent in your intellectual folly.

Are these articles meant to present some sort of equivocally with Islamic jihad? Let's even say they are. Jews who commit crimes are punished whether in ..Israel.. or ....America..... No Jew defends or justifies crime. Jews are clearly morally and intellectually superior to much of the rest of the world. OUr behavior is beyond reproach. I do not wish to toot our horn but in the face of a wave of antisemitism it doesn't heard to reming gentiles of the facts.

All of Jihad is based in the tenets of Islam. Jewish crimes have nothing to do with Judaism. THey are just jews committing crimes. But all these words are lost on you. You most likely think that blacks in prison are there because of us racism and not because they committed violent crimes.

In the meantime I am watching the news about a Muslim who killed 13 of his fellow soldiers after he shouted Allahu Akbar.

Don't forget to visit Savage Infidel. He is very active and correct in his approach to the news.


ME: Um....holy crap, I can't believe I just read this. Jews are clearly morally and intellectually superior to much of the rest of the world? That is a whole pile of bullshit. Oh well, I haven't come to really expect rational thought from you anyway, so all I can do is laugh and wish you the best of luck.


SS: I think you will find that there are very few Jews in prison. There are very few Jews on welcome. There are very few cases of incest among jews. Jews have the highest scores on ACT verbal tests. Jews are less likely to get divorced. Etc. Jews are more likely to get Nobel Prizes than any other people on earth. Jews are more likely to be heads of academic departments at major universities. Etc.

Jews are also more likely to write best selling works of fiction and nonfiction than gentiles. Jews are also more likely to down play their achievements more than any other religious group. Jew are more likely to be funnier than gentiles as well as eat better food in larger qualities.


ME: think you will find that Jews will go to a country, offend a whole pile of people and then flee in the middle of the night, leaving their colleagues and students high and dry, the bank looking for them, and then turn around and tell you how great they least one Jew I know does that. Not the best representative of your religion there.

Anyway, once again, it is clear that you have a very fucked up view of the world, and no sense of reality.

I think you will find that your view isn't going to get you very far in this world and makes you look like an arrogant dick who doesn't pay much attention to the world around him. I would say the slaughter of 1300 Palestinians was a pretty good representation at how low the occupying state of ....Israel.... will actually go. And then, after committing brutal war crimes, will bully and coerce anyone who points this fact out and start throwing around the anti-antisemitism card.

What I think you will find is that, in reality, we are all people...all humans. The idea that one group is far superior to others because of the religion they have chosen is bullshit. That is warped. What scares me is that you just seem to be getting more fanatical. Your rhetoric is mind blowing. I just wonder how far you are going to go with this all? How long before you are signing up with the Israeli army, itching to start killing Muslims?


SS: Oh poo hoo fuck Bilkent and those asshole muslims who run the place. I am glad I took money from them. I will never ever pay them a lira for it.

I was acting as an individual and not a representative of my people. I do not dismiss all christians as delusional liberals who are useful idiots for muslims just because you are.


ME: I should hope you were acting as an individual...and you proved that you are a pretty low individual. It is sad. What a waste...once again.

Besides, if you are referring to me, I'm not christian.


SS: You get scared by a lot of things besides Islamic jihad.

You are no intellectual competition for me when it comes to knowledge of ....Israel.... and its history.

If you really think that ....Israel.... is in some advantageous position in this world when it comes to its perception, you are fucking mental. My position is in the minority. You are in the position of having a lot of stupid people believing like you that ....Israel.... is a problem and commits war crimes. That is a big heaping pile of bullshit.

It sounds like you are a member of Islamic Jihad so that makes sense that you reject Christian belief.


ME: So, when the argument is turned around on you, you start to lose usual. Rational? No. Come on, you can't be serious. You cannot be looking at the world in such a completely warped, one sided way. Just to think about how ridiculous this all blatantly insane this whole conversation with you has's scary. The things you are saying? Come on...nothing but extremist rhetoric. Again, I still wonder where all of this is going to lead YOU?

I'm agnostic.

In terms of violence, no I don't condone it. I don't condone terrorist activities. But, I also don't condone sweeping statements and extreme rhetoric against a whole group of people.


SS: I am a defender of western civilization and its freedoms. I am not really interested where it leads me. But I feel it is my responsibility to stand up for the freedoms that I enjoy and inherited. That seems like a good thing to me. I am not really interested in seeing sides that blames Jews and ....America.... for problems in the world. That is the least rational thing on the face of the planet.


ME: So, your willing to completely trash other societies, ideas, beliefs, etc...but completely shut yourself off when it comes to criticism of the world around you?


SS: Whatever. I don't get where you are going with that. But yes I am completely willing to trash other societies.

And by the way, do you really think God cares that you're agnostic?


.. ..

ME: Huh? I don't get what your asking.


SS: Your problem is, besides being borderline antisemetic, is that you are the victim of multiculturalist nonsense which dictates that you must view things from that paradigm. That is a problem. So I would argue that I am much more intellectually free than you are.

I am more than willing to point out the problems of Jewish life. But those things are private and really do not concern gentiles. ....America.... has its problems and I would be more than willing to point them out. But why should I when the voices are already so numerous. The greatest problem in our world today is Islam and not enough people are saying it. That is where I come in.


.. ..

ME: Borderline antisemetic? Because I tried to point out that the world isn't quite as you see it and that people of all faiths do horrible things, I am antisemetic? No, I'm not. I've never understood hatred against Jews. It makes no sense to me whatsoever.

No concern to gentiles?? I see...interesting.

The greatest problem in the world today? Islam? No. Extremism is a huge issue, and based on your view, you are adding to the extremism.


SS: People do horrible things. Many of them are members of religions.
Muslims do horrible things in the name of Islam. Get that through your head.

Extremism does not exist among Jews. This is a myth and it does not exist among Christians. Also a big myth.

Yes, the problems among Jews, such as they exist beyond the real existential threat, are not your concern and remain a private matter for Jews to deal with. You can read all you like about sectarian differences in the hasidische communities of ....New York.... if you find that shit interesting. It seems to me that you are using it as fader for you moral equivalent arguments and that gets close to antisemitism.

I have posted your mail and my response from a few days ago on my blog fyi. I have withheld your name to protect the intellectually deficient.


ME: honestly belief all of this? You honestly don't believe that horrible things are done in the name of a christian or jewish god?

What I was trying to argue and show with ONE of the articles I presented is that within each religion, there is a wide band of interpretation...including very extreme views. I was not trying to demonize your religion. I was also trying to point out that there are Muslim groups who speak out AGAINST extremism and violence and point out that the Koran does NOT condone these activities.

I wish you could see that there are many interfaith groups who are working for peace and against radicalism on all sides. I wish you could see that for the most part, muslims, christians, jews and people of every religion live amongst each other and for the most part, everything is just fine. I wish you could see that radicalism, extremism is dangerous and adding to that is not helping anyone. I wish you could see that you are not part of an elite society that is superior to everyone else...that you are a human, surrounded by other humans, and we must live together, although there is no denying that there are people who make that difficult through extreme rhetoric and actions. You, unfortunately, seem to have chosen to be one of those extremists.

……And, that has been the conversation thus far.


  1. Wow, Chris. I don't think I could have continued to converse with that guy. What a nutjob. What a SCARY nutjob.
    I'm standing with YOU as another non-Christian who believes that people of all religions do nasty things and that Islam is not to blame any more than are Judaism and Christianity.

    (Christians don't do bad things in the name of their God??? Did this guy miss Prop 8??? Slavery? The Crusades???)

  2. He is indeed a interesting character. I just hope that some of what he is saying is a joke. He does have this sarcastic humour thing going which is often hard to figure out. But, knowing him, it's most likely that his dead serious. He appears to have become more radical since he left Turkey. I mean, he was pretty scary then. Now...holy geez.

    It's always interesting talking to him though, and it provides plenty of entertainment because there is NO way that what he is saying cannot be laughed at. If everything is 100 percent at face value, he is scary though. He is an extremist as far as I am concerned.